Date: May 8, 2023
Subject: Re: Bhavananda’s testimony presented as equal to that of Srila Prabhupada.
My dandavats to you Maharaja.
You wrote:
Please forgive me for being unwilling to argue about the matter.
That’s one way of dodging these questions I presented to you in my previous email challenging your use of citations from Bhavananda in your book (Prabhupada’s Kirtana Standards).
How do you suppose Bhavananda, promoted as a guru within ISKCON and widely accepted as such, persuaded others to have homosex with him?
I’ll tell you what I suppose. You tell me why I’m wrong. I suppose he presented himself as acharyam mam vijaniyan and/or saksad hari, in other words non-different from Krishna. Therefore, pleasing him by satisfying his perverse sexual appetite would please Krishna, Prabhupada, etc. That’s what I suppose. Am I wrong? If so, please cite the “historical testimony” of sources you consider reliable that refute my supposition.
Please forgive me for being unwilling to argue about the matter.
I’m a sucker for such pleas. Especially when I was just about to throw this blow at you with my next email.
You wrote (May 5, 2023):
I’ve carefully considered your concerns. I’m not going to go back and forth about it.
My proposed response:
Spoken like a true tyrant.
It is a succinct expression of your personal opinion but I am left to wonder what shastric support you rely upon for your position.
Persuasion, the method Srila Prabhupada used that was so successful in establishing our faith in him, can be a long and messy process. Rather than offer philosophical justifications based on quotations from guru, shastra and sadhu, it is far easier to emphatically state a position from which one will not retreat and stick with it (as you propose doing).
Prabhupada sometimes exercised that prerogative—with his disciples—as was his right. Perhaps you mistook me for your disciple? Otherwise, persuasion would seem the better course, at least with me. But ”going back and forth”, who wants that? It’s so messy. You might get dirty. And your ivory tower is so pristine. Why leave it, when it’s so clean and safe? Better not to risk it. But then ”No risk, no gain.” Umm. Yes, there is that to consider.
Now, again, you offer a similar pronouncement (“Please forgive me for being unwilling to argue about the matter.”) couched as a humble plea. Very nice. Something like “Please forgive me for shooting you in the head.” To which I’m obliged to reply “Well, you’ve said it so nicely, I must forgive you. What choice do I have?”
Please forgive me for being unwilling to argue about the matter.
Forgive? What’s to forgive? I have no claim over your time. You are free to do as you like, even though I may not like it, which I don’t.
I don’t like it when someone takes a strong position with me and then cuts me off at the knees with ”It’s my way or the highway.” rather than reply to my philosophical objections offered with reason and support from guru and shastra.
You don’t want to argue about the matter? Prabhupada argued from morning till night, a behavior he seems to have inculcated from his guru, Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswat Thakura; a behavior that may lead to our salvation. But for that where would we be now? But that’s beneath you? Why did you take sannyasa? Was it simply to dictate your positions and ideas to others who you will then attempt to shame or speak to in condescending tones should they question you? Or, better still, state your case and then run away, as you propose doing now?
Thesis, antithesis and synthesis is a Hegelian method said directly by Srila Sridhara Maharaja to be of value and perhaps stated less directly by others in our sampradaya such as Srila Saraswati Thakura, Srila Prabhupada and so on. Following that method I participated in a discussion with you because you asked for comments to the installments of your book which you sent to me unasked for. You may call it what you like, discussion, argument, whatever. It amounts to the same thing as far as I’m concerned. It’s a method used by those seeking knowledge and truth. I hoped my remarks would be helpful for you and appreciated your responses to them which, in my mind, furthered the discussion. I’m disappointed you want to dispense with it. But that’s your right.
To be frank, I think this behavior of yours is very shallow. I expected more.
I must say the same about the Prabhupada Vyasa Puja offerings book you asked me more than once to contribute to.
To honor your requests I spent several hours composing an offering ”from the heart” I thought to be suitable and appropriate to the occasion. Then I thought ”I bet there are some guidelines I should look at because they may cause my offering to be rejected.” After reading the guidelines it became clear my offering would never be seen in that book. I began a letter to you about it, which I did not complete. I present herewith a portion of it for your amusement.
Also: Let me take this opportunity to invite you to send an offering (if you haven’t already done so) for this year’s “Srila Prabhupada Tributes” book. Any godbrothers or godsisters you’re in touch with are also most welcome.
, , ,
The book provides a way for us to offer tribute to His Divine Grace and express our gratitude for all he has given us. And as you know, the book is open for all disciples. And it’s institutionally agnostic.
Again, I warmly welcome you to send an offering.
I honestly do appreciate your offer that I “send an offering.” With that I must also say you often surprise me with either your ignorance or naiveté about the world as it is, not as you imagine it to be.
Either directly or by implication none of these things are true.
Any godbrothers or godsisters you’re in touch with are also most welcome.
as you know, the book is open for all disciples.
And it’s institutionally agnostic.
My offering would no more be accepted than this one:
24. Now all of you are returning here on his order to worship him on his Vyasa-puja day — All together you are engaged in His worship.
25. But a festival of flowers and fruits is not the real worship: One who serves the guru’s message really worships him.
26. The service of the message is the real transcendental vibration. Don’t be falsely proud, brother; come back to that.
27. Kalidasa Nag, that Master Masay, One day said in the public assembly,
28. That Kali-yuga’s mission was killing the whole world And Lord Caitanya’s message is locked in a cage.
29. Oh shame! Brother, aren’t you at all embarrassed Behaving like businessmen to increase your followers?
30. Our master has said to preach; Let the neophytes go in the temples to do nothing but ring bells.
—Vaisistyastakam (Third Vaisistya)
(Vyasa-puja offering to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Prabhupada 1961)
by Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
I suppose you have not taken the time to read the ”GUIDELINES” (of Srila Prabhupada’s Tributes) which, in addition to the above, clearly prohibit much of what I would want to say or the way I would say it.
I must admit to you my own foolishness and naiveté for I spent several hours composing an offering before I remembered who the censors would likely be. I then proceeded to search out the aforementioned ”GUIDELINES” and quickly discovered the usual biases and prejudices that cause otherwise sincere seekers to remain as juveniles; like the many 25 year olds who, today, live in their parents basements unable to face grown up responsibilities on their own.
My frank opinion is that the ”GUIDELINES” FAQ’s and “Editorial standards?” were written by children who, well intentioned as they may be, wish to remain as such rather than face even the least opposition to their childish fantasies.
Although child-like, they are at least Srila Prabhupada’s children so I cannot help but wish them well. For better or worse my well-wishes are quite unlikely to ever be heard by them because the high walls they have erected to protect themselves from the likes of me do just what they are intended to do, keep fellows like me far, far away so that they will never have to face the challenges of such words as:
25. But a festival of flowers and fruits is not the real worship: One who serves the guru’s message really worships him.
26. The service of the message is the real transcendental vibration. Don’t be falsely proud, brother; come back to that.
In my small and humble way I am attempting to serve Srila Prabhupada’s ”message.” I want to invite everyone to do the same. But I cannot do that with censors that would not even permit an offering of the type Srila Prabhupada presented in his 1961 offering to his Divine Master, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura.
Let them (the censors) ”hear no evil.” Well enough. But they do so at the cost of hearing that which might just as well be good for them.
The children have taken over control of the school. No good has come of it and no good will ensue. The balance of this life will likely be wasted by them. Fortunately they will have the chance to begin again in the next where they left off in this one.
You may recall me telling you a friend asked me why I have anything to do with you. I told you the reason was this ”I believe I become better in your association.” Why would that be? Because it gives me the chance to challenge assumptions, prejudices, beliefs, etc., both mine and others, which you represent. Srila Prabhupada put it this way:
So to get knowledge is the first item for anyone who is hoping to find the perfection of his life. Therefore I advise you to read our books daily as far as possible and try to understand the subject matter from different angles of vision by discussing it frequently with the devotees at the New York temple. In this way you will gradually become convinced, and by your sincere attitude and devotional service you will make progress.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => PQPA 8: Advancing in Krsna Consciousness
Sounds a lot like ”thesis, antithesis and synthesis”, doesn’t it? It does to me.
“to get knowledge is the first item for anyone who is hoping to find the perfection of his life. Therefore I advise you to read our books daily as far as possible and try to understand the subject matter from different angles of vision by discussing it frequently with the devotees”
Now, by refusing to ”argue”, you’ve taken it upon yourself to cut off one avenue for pursuing that instruction. I suppose it is one form of antithesis, one I am all too familiar with. Rather than “try to understand the subject matter from different angles of vision” you demand we try to understand it from only your angle of vision.
Perhaps you should make a sign such as ”POSTED: DIFFERENT ANGLES OF VISION NOT ALLOWED.” to stand behind in order to ward off the dangers you might incur from facing ”different angles of vision.”
Well and good.
“from the absolute standpoint we find, that everything happens by the will of Krishna, Mahaprabhu, and necessarily of Gurudeva. And that is all good.
In different ways, in different stages, and that reacted. What he told [Srila Saraswati Thakura], the reaction, the reverberation, has come in different ways. [sanskrt verse] If we can accommodate the dissolution of yadhu vamsa, the war of Kurukshetra, if we find that that is not lacking in spiritual, from the Absolute standpoint, then this dismemberment also [of ISKCON], is to be appreciated, appreciated.
While complaining, but we are to, still we are to accept the inevitable, inevitable. And through this process the inevitable will appear.
Now we are sitting to find dissatisfaction in the existing administration [of ISKCON]. It is a process. And through this process, perhaps something will come out. We can’t avoid this, this is a necessary process. So, after Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura, that was also so. Through our complaint, our dissatisfaction, so many things came, and it was propagated and preached, in particular way. And that is the final reading of things.
That in the ultimate, ultimate decision is in His hand. And what is happening, that is all right, that is all all right. Still, according to our own realization we shall strain, don’t do this, but when done, that may be accepted, by the will of Krishna.
It is a peculiar, thesis, antithesis, synthesis. “It is undesirable, don’t do it.” But, when it is done, it should be accepted, His will. We must, I am to adjust with that. In this way we are to take things.”
— Srila Sridhar Maharaja “Accepting the Inevitable from the Absolute Plane” (also 82.02.27.A)
””Still, according to our own realization we shall strain, don’t do this, but when done, that may be accepted, by the will of Krishna.
It is a peculiar, thesis, antithesis, synthesis. “It is undesirable, don’t do it.” But, when it is done, it should be accepted, His will. We must, I am to adjust with that. In this way we are to take things.””
Please forgive me for rejecting your proposal that we end the discussion of topics you previously invited me to address.
All Glories to Sri Sri Guru Gauranga!
Sincerely,
Swami B.K. Giri
On May 7, 2023, at 3:11 PM, Jayadvaita Swami wrote:
Dandavats, Maharaja.
I think I’ve understood your points. Please forgive me for being unwilling to argue about the matter.
I hope all’s well on your side.
Hare Krishna.